IKIGANIRO CYA KAGAME NA RFI NA FRANCE 24 CYA 17/05/2021 MU KINYARWANDA

Mu ruzinduko arimo mu gihugu cy’u Bufransa, kuri uyu wa mbere taliki ya 17 Gicurasi 2021, Prezida Paul KAGAME yagiranye ikiganiro cyatanbutse imbona nkubone (en direct/live) n’ibitangazamakuru bikomeye byo mu Bufaransa; aribyo Televisiyo FRANCE 24 na RFI, (Radio Mpuzamahanga y’u Bufransa). Muri icyo kiganiro, umunyamakuru Marc PERELMAN wa FRANCE 24 afatanyije na Alexandra BRANGEON wa RFI bagiranye ikiganiro cyiswe “Paul KAGAME, Prezida w’u Rwanda kuri France 24”. Twashimye kubashyirira icyo kiganiro cy’amajwi n’amashusho mu nyandiko; yahinduwe mu Kinyarwanda na Albert MUSHABIZI, ku bwa TheRwandan.com.

Mukurikire ikiganiro :

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Muraho kandi tubahaye ikaze kuri Television FRANCE 24 na Radio Mpuzamahanga y’u Bufransa (RFI) ! Ni mu kiganiro tugiye kugirana na  Prezida w’u Rwanda, Paul KAGAME. Nkaba mfatanyije muri iki kiganiro na Alexandra BRANGEON waje aturuka kuri RFI !  

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Bwana Prezida muraho !

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Bwana Prezida tubahaye ikaze ! Mwashimye Raporo y’abanga mu iby’amateka b’Abafransa muvuga ko iyo raporo ari … reka mbivuge mu magambo yanyu bwite… « intambwe y’ingirakamaro. » iyo raporo yari yasabwe na Prezida w’u Bufransa Emmanuel MACRON yanzura ko  u Bufransa… reka mbivuge uko byanditse… «… bufite inshingano ziremeye kandi zitabworoheye muri Jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi yo mu 1994 !» Prezida w’u Bufransa yakagombye kuza mu Rwanda mu minsi iza… ese izi mpinduka mu mikoranire yanyu, zaba ari intango y’ukuzahuka kwa burundu k’umubano hagati y’u Bufransa n’u Rwanda ?

KAGAME : Mu kwanzika… nk’uko twabivuze na mbere… ndatekereza ko ari intambwe nini ijya  imbere twishimira ku ruhande rwacu nk’u Rwanda, kandi ndatekereza ko byakabaye ari nako biri ku rugero ndetse rurushijeho ku Bufransa. Ubu noneho  hari ibyo tumaze kugeraho, gushyira ukuri ku mugaragaro bikozwe n’abantu bigenga, za komisiyo zigenga ;kubera ko hari Raporo ya Duclert yamaze gutangazwa… hari kandi n’indi komisiyo yo ku ruhande rwacu, Komisiyo ya Muse nayo yamaze gutangaza raporo yayo… Mu iby’ukuri turatera intambwe mu mujyo umwe… ibihamya ku ibyabaye… ndatekereza ko magingo aya u Bufransa n’u Rwanda bifite umusingi mwiza ubishoboza gupfundika umubano mwiza nk’uko byagakwiye… Ikiruta ibindi twagakurikijeho ni ugusiga ibyo byose inyuma yacu… bitavuze ko tubyiyibagije ariko… mbega hakabaho kubabarira ngo turenge umutaru mu buryo bwiza… Ntekereza nta shiti ko dutera intambwe nziza ! 

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Bwana Prezida ! Muravuga gutera intambwe, kugera ku bikorwa bifite intego… raporo yanzuye ko u Bufransa bufite inshingano zitabworoheye… ariko ntiyanzuye ku bufatanyacyaha bw’u Bufransa ! Ese namwe ntimuhabanya n’uwo mwanzuro !?

KAGAME : Simpabanya n’ibintu byinshi byavuzwe muri ziriya raporo zombi ! Hashobora kuzagira ibindi bikorwa mukuzunganira ;ariko ingingo y’ingenzi yamaze kunononsorwa. Iyo uvuze « inshingano zitoroshye » ubwo ni uburyo bwo gukabiriza, kuremereza… ntizakabaye inshingano zanjye kubabwira uko bakagombye kuba barabifutuye… mbega  ni uko ibintu bimeze… Icyakora nshobora kuvuga ko nta gikuba gicitse, reka dufate ibyo byanzuwe by’ »inshingano zitoroshye ! » 

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Uravuga ko nta gikuba gicitse ! Ariko mu Kiganiro wagize mu w’2014, wavuze ko u Bufransa butari umufatanyacyaha gusa ;ko ndetse bwagize uruhare mu bikorwa nyirizina bya Jenoside ! Ni iki cyahindutse kuva icyo gihe ?

KAGAME : Ku giti cyanjye, mfite uburenganzira bwo kugira uko numva ibintu… kubera ko biriya ni ibintu nabayemo… nabikurikiniraga hafi… ubwo rero ibyo navuze narabivuze…  ndetse nshobora no kudahabanya n’ibyo navuze icyo gihe, ndetse na magingo aya ! Ariko ubu turimo turavuga kuri za komisiyo zigenga ;zageze ku myanzuro mu buryo ubwo ari bwo bwose baba barabikozemo… kandi ingingo wari ukomojeho ntiyaje mu myanzuro ya raporo zombi… Mbega ibyo ni ibibazo by’ababikoze, si ikibazo cyanjye !

UMUNYAMAKURU Maric P. : Leta Zunze ubumwe z’Amerika, Umuryango w’Abibumbye n’u Bubiligi, igihugu cyahoze kibakolonije, ibyo byose byasabye imbabazi mu buryo bukwiriye ku ibyo bakoze cyangwa se batakoze muri biriya bihe byo muw’1994. U Bufransa bwo ntiburabigenza gutyo.  Ese waba wifuza ko u Bufransa nabwo busaba imbabazi, nk’ikimenyetso  cy’ubushake bwizacyo kubaka umubano mushya mwiza, warimo uvugaho ?

KAGAME : Ibyo ngibyo ni inshingano z’u Bufransa, gufata umwanzuro wo gukora icyo batekereza ko kibarutiye ibindi ;ikintu kibi nakora ariko nkaba ntifuza kugikora, ni ukuba nakigera nsaba uwo ari we wese, gusaba imbabazi, cyangwa se gukora iki na kiriya ! Ibyo ndabibarekeye, nibo bazi icyo bakora kibatunganiye… Igihe icyo ari cyo cyose ibyo byabaho mu bwangamugayo, mu buryo bukwiriye… Abantu… isi niyo mucamanza, ntabwo rero nakabaye ari njye nca imanza…

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Ariko cyakabaye ikimenyetso cy’ingirakamaro ! Ndemeranywa nawe ko atari wowe ugomba kubisaba; ariko na none biramutse bibaye wabifata nk’iby’agaciro!

KAGAME : Ndatekereza ko ari ko kuri. Iyo umuntu yemera ko hari ibyo atatunganyije; maze akagira uko abyitwararika… ni ikintu cyiza nagashyimye !

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Ese wanakishimira ko Ambasaderi w’u Bufransa aza mu Rwanda, nyuma y’imyaka ntawe uharangwa !?

KAGAME : Byanga bikunda, ibyo nabyishimira ! Erega turi mu rugendo rwo kunoza umubano !

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Uratekereza ko byaba ari ibya vuba aha !

KAGAME : Ndabyifuza ntyo, ariko ni u Bufransa buzabifataho umwanzuro.

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Hashize amezi make u Bufransa butaye Felisiyani KABUGA muri yombi; yahoze ari umuterankunga… niba ari ko nkwiriye kubivuga… wa Jenoside… Ku bwawe icyo cyaba ari ikimenyetso, cy’uko u Bufransa bwaba bwiteguye mu iby’ukuri, gukurikirana Abakoze Jenoside babarizwa ku butaka bwabwo ?

KAGAME : Ndatekerezo ko ari intango nziza ! Ubwo rero byaba birushijeho ! Ku bwanjye, nshyigikiye ko ibikorwa byiza byakomeza kwisukiranya; niba koko u Bufransa bufite ubushake bwo kubikomeza ! Haracyari umubare mwinshi w’Abajenosideri, ukubakurikirana bikaba bitarakozwe mu buryo buboneye.

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Reka dufate nk’urugero rwa Agatha HABYARIMANA, umupfukazi w’uwahoze ari Prezida wishwe, akunze gusiragira mu nkiko hano mu Bufransa; wifuza ko u Bufransa bwamwirukana cyangwa bukamuboherereza ngo mumukurikirane ?

KAGAME : Urabyumva nawe ko cyaba ari ikimenyetso cyiza cyane ! Iyi ngingo imaze imyaka iduhungabanyiriza umubano ! Ni byo koko ndizera ko ibintu bishobora kuzarushaho kuba byiza… Byaba kuri Agatha cyangwa se no kubandi; hano bahari ku bwinshi !

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Ariko aho nyine byaba ari iby’agaciro ! Ni koko !?

KAGAME : Yego ni umwe muri abo, ari ku rutonde… urutonde rurerure cyane… ari mu b’ibanze… Ariko ni u Bufransa buzabifataho umwanzuro ! Si uburyo bwo kuba nabibagiraho inama ;gusa sinabura no kubasaba ko ibyo bikorwa na Leta ;bikanyura mu nzira zemewe n’ibihugu byombi… Gusa ntago ngambiriye kubabwira icyo bakwiriye gukora ;ariko na none sinabura kuvuga mu buryo butaziguye icyo nsaba ! 

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Tukiri aho ku butabera n’inshingano ;mu kwezi gushize, Diyoniziyo MUKWEGE, Umunyekongo watsindiye igihembo cya Nobel yari i Paris. Yasabye u Bufransa gufasha, kugira ngo ubutabera bukurikirane abayoboye ibikorwa byabereyemo ibyaha byibasiye u Burasirazuba bwa Repubulika Iharanira Demokarasi ya Kongo. Bimwe ni ibikorwa by’abasirikari bo mu karere, mu bihugu bituranyi, nk’uko byemejwe n’impuguke z’Umuryango w’Abibumbye. Mushobora kuzemera ko abawofisiye b’Abanyarwanda bakurikiranwa ku byaha byakorewe muri RDC, bishobora no kuzitwa Jenoside ?

KAGAME : Nk’uko mubizi, birashoboka ko raporo y’umushinga « mapping » ;itavuzweho rumwe mu buryo bukabije ! Mu iby’ukuri hari n’abayirwanya ku rwego rwo hejuru bari muri RDC, ndetse no mu bihugu bituranyi. Yashingiye cyane ku mpamvu za politiki ;MUKWEGE yahindutse ikimenyetso cyangwa se igikoresho cy’izo mbaraga zitagaragara, maze bimuhesha n’igihembo cya Nobel… Mbega bamupakiramo ibyo avuga… kandi byongeye hari n’izindi raporo zatangajwe kandi zikaba zisobanura ibintu mu buryo buhabanye ! 

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Ibihabanye ? Ko nta byaha byabaye mu karere ?

KAGAME : Oya nta byaha byabayeho !

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Mu Burasirazuba bwa RDC ?

KAGAME : Oya da ! Nta byababye pe ! Haba ku bantu babishinjwe, ndetse no ku bihugu byatunzwe agatoki, nk’icyacu… Uriya ni umukino w’ihame rya Jenoside ebyiri bibereyemo !

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Mu Burasirazuba bwa RDC umutekano ukomeje kumera nabi. Bamwe baravuga ko ibintu bikomeje kujya i Rudubi… Guverinoma ya Kongo yashyizeho iteka ry’ibihe bidasanzwe mu Intara za Kivu y’Amajyaruguru na Ituri mu gihe cy’iminsi 30; ndetse bishoboka ko cyazanongerwa. Ese iyi yaba ari ntambwe nziza ra ? Wemeranywa nabyo ?

KAGAME : Ibihe bidasanzwe njye uko mbyumva kwari nko kuvuga bati : iki ni ikibazo gikomeye cyane hano. Reka noneho dufate ingamba zikakaye kugira ngo tugire intango nziza yo guhangana nabyo. Niyo mpamvu navuga nti : ibi byo gushyiraho ibihe bidasanzwe, kuri njye ndabona bikwiriye. Ariko ari njye nanahita ko mfata n’imigambi ihamye yo gusohoka muri ibyo bibazo mu buryo buhoraho. Bitari ukuza ukanyura ibintu hejuru, maze nyuma y’imyaka itanu na none ukabona bya bibazo; ndetse wenda hakaza ibirushijeho ubukana. Ariko na none hariya hari Ingabo z’Umuryango w’Abibumbye… kandi Umuryango w’Abibumbye… zavuye hanze y’igihugu.. zigiye kuhamara imyaka 24… Haracyari izi nshingano zose z’isi nzima… ariko bigacecekwa… ariko nta n’ubaza ati : ariko ni iki mwagiye gukora hariya imyaka 24 yose… Mwagiye hariya gukemura ibibazo, byagenze bite ?

UMUNYAMAKURU Maric P. : Kuriya ni ugutsindwa hariya ?

KAGAME : Ntekereza ko ari ugutsindwa cyane aho uhubwo bitavugwa ! Waba ubitubije kuvuga ko ari ugutsindwa gusa mu buryo busanzwe !

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Noneho mu buryo bwo gukomereza aho… Igihugu cyanyu n’icya Kongo bigaragara ko umubano mwiza warushijeho kuva aho Felix TSHISEKEDI atangiriye kuyobora. Mwemera kongera ingufu mu kugarura umutekano ku rubibi rw’ibihugu byombi, murwanya Inyeshyamba… Ese mwaba mugeze ku ki kuri uwo mwumvikano ? Mwaba muteganya gukorera hamwe ibikorwa bya gisirikari ?

KAGAME : Turacyabijyaho impaka ! Gusa ikintu cyo kwishimira ni uko byibura hariho uwo mwuka mwiza utubashisha kuganira, mu gihe bitahozeho mu bihe byashize ! Kandi nyine, byanga bikunda abakorera hamwe ntibabura ibisubizo.

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Ariko ibikorwa bya gisirikare muhuriyeho nabyo murabiteganya ?

KAGAME : Yego rwose gusa biterwa n’uko ibintu byifashe… Mu gihe gikwiriye biba ari ngombwa ko impande zombi zibyumvikanaho zikajya impaka niba koko byakunda, hakarebwa uburyo bw’amafaranga byatwara, hakarebwa n’inyungu za buri ruhande ku myanzuro ifashwe… Ni ngombwa ko abantu baba bagomba kuba babangutse mu gushyira mu bikorwa !

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Nk’uko byemezwa n’impuguke z’Umuryango w’Abibumbye, Abasirikari b’u Rwanda baba baratangiye ibikorwa ku butaka bwa RDC!

KAGAME : Yego nifuza ko batabicumbikira aho, ahubwo bakanahata ibibazo Umuryango w’Abibumbye, impamvu Abanyarwanda bagombye kwigira muri RDC, mu gihe uwo Umuryango w’Abibumbye ari wo ufite inshingano zo kubungabunga uko ibintu byifashe.

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Ubwo noneho byaba bisobanuye ko, mwemeje ko mwaba muzi ko Ingabo z’u Rwanda zaba ziri ku butaka bwa RDC ?

KAGAME : Ashwi da ! Ibyo ntabyo nzi rwose ! Ahubwo ndavuga ko uwo Umuryango w’Abibumbye ukora iyo rapport, ari ukunanirwa muri Kongo ! Ibyo nibyo mpamije rwose !

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Ukunanirwa ?

KAGAME : Yego pe, ukunanirwa mu mpande zose !

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Nk’uko byumvikana rero, ubwo Ingabo z’u Rwanda ziri muri Kongo !

KAGAME : Reka da ! Iyo twe tubayo  ntitwajyaga kunanirwa ! Ndabahamiriza ko twe tutajyaga kunanirwa gukemura ikibazo !

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Tugarutse ku bibazo by’imbere mu gihugu cy’u Rwanda, Paul RUSESABAGINA, Intwari ya Film « Hotel Rwanda », arimo araburanira mu nkiko z’i Kigali. Ahanganye n’ibirego 9 : birimo iterabwoba, gufasha umutwe witwaje intwaro… Avuga ko atigeze na rimwe akangurira ubugizi bwa nabi !

KAGAME : Yeee ! Icya mbere si we wenyine uri muri urwo rubanza. Harimo n’abandi bagera kuri 20 baburanira hamwe, baregwa kuba barakoreye ibyaha Abanyarwanda. Bose barakurikiranwa mu rukiko, ariko bamwe muri bo bamutangaho ibihamya biremereye bimushinja. Njye ntabwo numva impamvu abantu bakomeza urwo rusaku ;ari mu rukiko, ntabwo yahishwe ahantu hihariye, ari mu rukiko nk’abandi bose !

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Murabivuze ! None se kuki hariho urwo rusaku kuri icyo kibazo ? Wenda aho ntibyaba biterwa n’uburyo yafashwemo, avuga ko yatezwe umutego wo kumuzana mu Rwanda !

KAGAME : Ese ubwo ikibazo cyaba kirihe mu gutega umutego umunyabyaha mu gihe waba ubashije kumubona ! Nta kindi cyo gukora uretse kumujyana mu butabera !

UMUNYAMAKURU Marc P. : Leta Zunze Ubumwe z’Amerika, Umuryango w’Ubumwe bw’u Burayi n’abandi… bavuze ko bahangayikishijwe n’urubanza rwe ? Ese ruzaba mu butabera busesuye ? Barakeka ko atari ko bizagenda ! Bashingiye ku buryo yatezwe umutego mu gutabwa muri yombi ;bo baratekereza ko ashobora kutazabona ubutabera nyabwo ! Ese wumva hari icyo icyo kibazo kikubwiye ?

KAGAME : Yego rwose ! Njye ndwita urubanza ruciye mu mucyo ! Ku ruhande rwanjye, ntabwo ari u Bwongereza cyangwa Leta Zunze Ubumwe z’Amerika, cyangwa se Umuryango w’Ubumwe bw’u Burayi… Oya ! Nifuza nanjye kubona urubanza ruciye mu mucyo ! Kuki se rugomba kuba ruciye mu mucyo ari uko byemejwe n’u Burayi, Leta Zunze Ubumwe z’Amerika, cyangwa se abandi, noneho ntibibe byaba twe !? Murabizi ni uko abantu bivugira amahomvu birangira babaye abavangura-ruhu ! Ni nko kuvuga ko, uburyo bwonyine bwo gukorera mu mucyo muri Afrika cyangwa mu Rwanda, ari ugukora ugenzurwa n’u Burayi, Leta Zunze Ubumwe z’Amerika cyangwa se ikindi gihugu ! Ashwi da ! si uko biri ! 

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Birashoboka ko wenda ibyo byaba biva ko imiryango myinshi yaba irega ubutegetsi bwanyu ko bucecekesha abatavuga rumwe nabwo cyangwa babunenga. Naguha nk’urundi rugero : Ugutabwa muri yombi k’umucuranzi w’indirimo zihimbaza Imana Kizito MIHIGO wanengaga ubutegetsi, maze akaregwa gukwiza amacakubiri… akaza gupfira muri gasho ya polisi ;ubutegetsi buvuga ko ari ukwiyahura, ariko imiryango iharanira uburengazanira bwa muntu yo si uko ibibona. 

KAGAME : Hari abahangayikishijwe n’ibyo, ariko njye simbarimo ! Byose bitunganywa na za anketi ndetse n’inkiko !

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Ubwo se mushobora kwemera iperereza ryigenga kuri iyo ngingo !

KAGAME : Ryigenga ryigenga ibyo ni ibiki ? Ubwo se tuvuge ko haba hakenewe Iperereza ryigenga ku bintu bibera hano i Paris mu Bufransa ?

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Mu kwanzura, Bwana Prezida, kuva uri Prezida imyaka 21 irihiritse. Amatora yimirije imbere mu myaka itatu uzaba umukandida ?

KAGAME : Murazi ! Mbere ya byose ndifuza ko Imana ikomeza kumpa ubuzima bwiza, ibyo ni ku bwanjye bwite ! Aho murahumva ? Naho ku bya politiki, Abanyarwanda bazafata imyanzuro, kandi nanjye nshobora gufata umwanzuro wanjye bwite. Niba Abanyarwanda bavuze ngo oya barashaka ko nguma ku butegetsi, ibyo ni iby’agaciro. Ariko nshobora kubabwira nti : « mbega murabizi ! Ngomba kujya gukora ibindi ! »

UMUNYAMAKURU Alexandra B. : Murakoze Bwana Prezida kuba mwatwemereye icyi kiganiro ; kandi turabashimiye namwe abaduteze amatwi kuri France 24 na RFI.

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